Five Keys To A Deeper Mindfulness Practice, with Melvin McLeod

Speaker 1 · 0:00Hello everyone. Welcome to the Mindfulness Exercises Podcast. My name is Sean Fargo. My guest today has done as much as almost anyone alive to shape how the modern world understands mindfulness. And he's done most of it quietly from behind the editor's desk and writer's desk. Melvin McLeod has spent more than 30 years at Lion's Roar. First as its editor-in-chief, and now as its editor at large. It's the largest Buddhist media organization in the English language. In my experience, it's a wonderful magazine with very deep interviews and articles on some of the world's top mindfulness and meditation teachers. Melvin is also a co-founder of Mindful Magazine, and he's been a meditator himself for over 40 years. He came to all of this by a pretty unlikely road. He was a young police reporter in Montreal in a newsroom when he picked up a book on Buddhism, and he felt something click and knew right then that this was who he was. From there, his life took some unusual turns. He spent years as a television reporter for the CBC. He spent a year alone in a cabin in the woods, and he traveled across India looking for his teacher. Eventually, his spiritual life and his working life came together and he found his calling as an editor. And what an editor he's been. Over the years, he's helped bring the teachings of Tiknat Han, Pama Chodron, John Kabatzin, the Dalai Lama, and so many others to millions of readers. He edited several collections of Tiknat Han's work. He created the long-running Best Buddhist writing series, which I highly recommend. And he wrote his own book on bringing Buddhist wisdom into public life called Mindful Politics. So if you've read much about meditation over the last few decades, chances are Melvin has had a hand in it somewhere. Now he's written what might be his most ambitious work yet. It's called With a Single Breath, The Complete Path to Mindfulness. And it comes out in August from Shimbala. The big idea is a simple one. Mindfulness, he says, is far more than a technique for stress and focus. It's the doorway to a complete way of living. He builds that path around five keys, and he draws on more than 50 practices from some of the most respected teachers of our time. Rick Hansen calls the book original and brilliant. Christopher Germer calls it Medicine for Our Times. Melvin McLeod, it's a true honor to have you here. Welcome.

Speaker 2 · 3:04Well, thank you so much. Perhaps more than I deserved in terms of your praise. So thank you very much, and it's a pleasure to be here.

Speaker 1 · 3:11Well, just even going through that introduction, I'm welling with gratitude for your work. I've been a reader of Lion's Roar, Mindful Magazine, Best Buddhist Writing, Tignat Han, etc. And yeah, I'm very grateful for all the work that you've edited and published and written. I know how much of a mark you've made on Buddhist practice and mindfulness practice, and you've had an influence on my life. So very grateful to have you here.

Speaker 2 · 3:45That's very gratifying to hear.

Speaker 1 · 3:47I'm looking forward to learning a little bit more about your background, your upcoming book, which I invite everyone to check out. But first, I'd like to learn a little bit about how you found these practices.

Speaker 1 · 4:01You opened a book on Buddhism while you were in a newsroom somewhere and something just clicked. So I'm just wondering what you recognized in the moment when you open the book. Does that young reporter still show up in how you see mindfulness today?

Speaker 2 · 4:19Just to go back, I had a fairly standard baby boomer life in college, uh, explored various new age teachings and books, as well as discovering through various substances that reality might not be what we always think it is. I then went on to a beginning a career in journalism. I had bought a book because my mother was ill at the time of the Tibetan Book of the Dead, Evans Wentz's translation of it. I was indeed sitting in front of a bank of police radios in the old Montreal Star Newsroom where I was a beginning police reporter, started to read the first page of Evans Wentz's introduction to that book, and immediately felt some sort of mysterious and deep connection with it. What I intuited about whatever this was I was reading, and remembering I'd only read one paragraph of it, was that whatever this Buddhism was, and I think it applies just as much to mindfulness, it had total integrity in the sense that it was never going to tell me what it thought I wanted to hear. It was only going to tell me what was true and what I needed. And so, right from the beginning, I felt there was a crystalline integrity to Buddhism and as much to mindfulness. That indeed, as the famous Rolling Stones song goes, you can't always get what you want, but Buddhism and mindfulness are going to give us what we need.

Speaker 1 · 5:42Beautiful. Yeah, and it feels akin to perhaps why you became a journalist or a writer in the sense that you're looking for the truth and wanting to share that with others.

Speaker 2 · 5:55I think that's true. I mean, I was a journalist before I was a Buddhist, really. I would say that I've been extremely lucky in that I've been able to bring my professional skills to bear as a journalist, as an editor, as a writer, in the service of traditions that I believe are of great benefit to people's lives and to our society. And in that sense, I suppose I've been one of the lucky ones that I've been able to devote my professional skills to something I believe deeply in and still do, that can be of great benefit to our lives and the world. And in fact, I would then segue

Speaker 2 · 6:33to say that although I remain a committed Buddhist practitioner, that in a sad way, I believe that the Eastern religion of Buddhism, Capital B Buddhism, is really in the end only going to have a limited impact in this society by virtue of being a little known Asian religion. Of course, it offers great value to those who practice it. But in the end, if the basic truths and practices of mindfulness, awareness, compassion, insight, which are universal, they represent universal human longings, they represent universal human truths. If they are genuinely to have impact on the society, American society, human society, in a substantial way. And after all, having benefit is what all of this is all about, that I believe that that's going to happen in the context of the secular evidence-driven tradition or now movement of mindfulness. So, in a way, I would say that I've had a deep belief, and I think evidence of my own life, that the practice of meditation, of mindfulness, of awareness, of compassion, of insight, are of deep value. And now I believe that, albeit that I remain a totally committed Buddhist practitioner, I feel that the much more potentially powerful and effective vehicle for presenting those truths and those techniques in this modern society is via the mindfulness movement. And that's what my book is devoted to: to offering a complete view of what can be presented to people, not as religion, not as Buddhism, not necessarily even as spirituality, but simply by presenting simple truths as true, by presenting things that work as things that work.

Speaker 1 · 8:32You referenced that Rolling Stones song, we may not always get what we want, but we usually get what we need. Would you say that at the heart of your new book is a challenge to the whole like mainstream movement that mindfulness, as it's been popularized in the West, we may have shrunk it down too far as a technique, just for calm and focus. But what you're pointing to is that really it's more of a complete path with these five keys. And what do you think we've lost by treating it as a tool instead of a more complete path of what you're pointing to?

Speaker 2 · 9:11I think I would reverse the chronology or the process that you've just described. Rather than saying that something has been lost or shrunk, rather that it is time for the mindfulness movement to take the next step in its development. I believe deeply that what we call mainstream mindfulness, the mindfulness movement, the secular mindfulness movement, started by John Kabatzin, is indeed a new and genuine contemplative tradition brilliantly suited to the modern world. It has made in its first phase an extraordinary accomplishment, which is to say that since it was founded, say in the early 70s, that it has inspired millions of people to practice basic mindfulness meditation to their benefit in many, many ways. And that's not easy in a society and that is often skeptical about the claims of things like meditation. So, in its what I consider to be its first step, the mainstream mindfulness or secular mindfulness movement has achieved an historic accomplishment. And now, on that basis, it is time for us to take the next step in its development and to present mindfulness not simply as a beneficial meditation technique. And of course, it has many, many concrete benefits, but by looking at it instead as a complete path that starts with mindfulness meditation, that the benefits of mindfulness to our lives and to our society can be both deepened and expanded. So rather than thinking that anything has been lost, I rather take a positive view that now having done something really amazing in its first step of its development, it's time now for the mindfulness movement to take the next step. Now, here's one reason why I think that's so important. Of course, by looking at mindfulness as a complete path, and I'm sure we will discuss the ways in which I at least have chosen to describe it that way, that has many benefits to individual practitioners. But I think its greatest benefit is that traditionally the kinds of deep personal and societal transformation that are offered when mindfulness is seen as a complete path are traditionally associated with and limited to religious paths. And that's, of course, over the millennia been fine. And in those religious paths, with all their negative baggage, many people have found the kind of deep personal and social change that they long for. Now, in today's world, millions of people rightly are weary of religious practice, do not believe in religion, and are all too aware of the negative baggage of institutionalized religion. And yet still they long for the kind of deep personal and social transformation that previously was associated only with religious practice. Now, for the first time, when viewing mindfulness as a complete and transformative path of life, they can access proven, powerful methods of transformation in a modern, common sense and evidence-based format. So while previously these kind of really powerful methods were traditionally only offered in the context of religion, now for the first time they are available to people in the world today who are not interested in religious practice, but still long for that same kind of personal and social transformation that these techniques can deliver that can allow us to live the kinds of life we all long for in the kind of society that we deserve. That I believe is potentially the greatest benefit of the mainstream mindfulness movement, that when looked at as a complete path of life, it offers to people the kind of powerful and effective techniques traditionally only available in a religious context, now available in an evidence-based, science-proven secular context.

Speaker 1 · 13:26And you highlight five keys in your book about this newly evolved secular path, and you outline them as meditation, insight, love, and compassion, ethics, and community. And I notice elements of religious eightfold path. I don't know how you would describe that, but I think these core keys that you outline. To me, it feels complete. And I'm wondering if you could just talk a little bit about how you arrived at those five. And, you know, I noticed that meditation was one of the keys. So I'm curious if you are referring to mindfulness and concentration practice or even a wider variety of meditation practices. I'm also curious what insights you're referring to, whether they're the classic three marks of existence or other insights of meditation or right view. I'm just curious if you could talk about those keys a little bit.

Speaker 2 · 14:32I'm happy to. And there were a lot of different points you touched on in that question, which I want to address. So I will so please feel free to remind me of points that you made that I do not address.

Speaker 1 · 14:43Sure.

Speaker 2 · 14:44So I think I'd like to start with the connection between the mindfulness path and religious paths, specifically Buddhism. Because of course, the mindfulness movement in general, as well as what I am presenting here, draws heavily on Buddhist teachings and practices. However, these are, to my mind, universal human capabilities, universal human aspirations, universal truths of reality that Buddhism happens to teach very well and has been specialized in for over 2,000 years. But that does not make them, in fact, inherently Buddhist.

Speaker 1 · 15:24Right. I fully agree with that. And I just love the way you phrase that. Thank you for saying that.

Speaker 2 · 15:31People who practice mindfulness, which in a way could be as simple as paying attention to what's happening inside and what's happening outside of you, know that they are not practicing Buddhism. They are simply cultivating basic human capabilities. And that's every bit as true for our ability to know reality through insight, to have love and compassion, to live ethically, to live in community. Buddhism and other religions teach about all these, but these are simple human aspirations, capabilities, and truths.

Speaker 1 · 16:03Absolutely.

Speaker 2 · 16:04So in that sense, it's very important to recognize that although the mindfulness movement and this book may draw upon the insights and practices taught by Buddhism, as well as other religions, that these are not inherently Buddhist. They are just true and they just work. So, how did I arrive at this particular description of mindfulness as a complete path? First of all, it's important to say that I think the main leap that has to be made by the mindfulness movement is the basic profession of teaching mindfulness from being a helpful meditation technique to being a complete path. What that complete path might include will differ from person to person. People have different opinions about what to include in that path. I have included these five keys. I don't think that's a bad proposal. Others will include one include other things, more creativity, all kinds of different things. All fair to include them. And so the basic point is we need now to start to describe mindfulness as a complete path of life. What one includes in that, one can decide for oneself. I have chosen to include these five elements, which I do think are important and represent important parts of human life: love and compassion, ethics, community. These are just fundamental parts of human life. So the key insight, though, is that this entire path, that the cultivation of those basic human capabilities all starts with the simple act of being present.

Speaker 2 · 17:42And from that, organically, naturally, a full, worthwhile human life can evolve. There is one key misunderstanding of how mindfulness practice is understood. And you've hinted at that. Mindfulness practice, in fact, has two parts, even though, in the end, they are one practice. I have broken them into two. Mindfulness practice begins, as I'm sure your viewers are well aware, many of whom I'm sure practice this themselves, with the simple practice of mindfulness meditation, of calming the mind, of focusing the mind, of being aware without judgment, without criticism of what's happening inside of us, what's happening outside of us. The simple act of being present with that. That's the first part. In the society at this point, popularly, that is what mindfulness practice has been understood to be. However, the real benefit, the real power, the real fruition of mindfulness practice comes in the second part, which is the development of insight. So when having calmed and focused one's mind, then one is able to look at the nature of reality, both the reality of what's taking place inside of us, as well as the reality of what's happening outside of us in a sustained, focused way, and to see their true nature. Because so much of our suffering in this life is caused by misunderstanding who we are, what this world is that we live in, what will truly make us happy and what will not. Then the development of insight into the true nature, our own nature, the nature of mind, the nature of heart, the nature of me as a being, the nature of the society, the nature of these phenomena that I experience, insight into what really brings happiness for myself and others and what does not, the cultivation of those different insights, when we apply the focused mind that we have developed through mindfulness meditation, is where the true transformative and liberating power of mindfulness lies. So although insight is often not discussed in the mindfulness world as the second and payoff part of the practice, that's what makes mindfulness a complete path of life. Now, you asked, what do we develop insight into? I think I could list some of those things, but I can think I could go into it in more detail. First, we gain insight. Well, let's turn this question around. One of the problems in our life, one of the things that causes us a lot of suffering, is that we feel that we and the things we experience are solid, separate, and unconnected, and at their core have something ongoing, something permanent. Usually something permanent I think of as me. I really, really want to believe I'm permanent. I don't want to die. It's all based, of course, on the dial of death.

Speaker 1 · 20:48Or your great hair, too.

Speaker 2 · 20:50Well, that's gonna go too. And of course, we want to believe this world we experience too is reliable, secure, solid. So the first thing we gain insight into is that in fact, our thoughts, our emotions, our body, the world we experience are constantly in flux, are constantly changing, and that everything is interconnected, that indeed we are caused by everything in this universe, and in turn we are a cause of it. That's the first insight. And that can create for in us a sense of relaxation, a sense that we do not have to constantly struggle in the service of bringing happiness and security and permanence to a fictitious self that can never actually be permanent or unchanging or independent. The second thing that we can gain insight into is investigating the nature of mind in order to discover that, in fact, it may transcend the changing conditions that happen inside and outside of us. And in my book, I offer a series of meditations. That allows us to explore what is the true nature of our awareness that may indeed be our own true nature, may indeed be the true nature of reality, and why that may not be only the things that we see projected upon it, that we can actually look behind the objects of our awareness, the objects of our consciousness to the nature of awareness and of consciousness itself. That's the second thing that again can liberate us by seeing that our true nature is not necessarily tied to all of these transient conditions, that when we're attached to them bring us a lot of suffering. The third kind of awareness, which I emphasize a lot in the book, is that in a very practical, real way, we misunderstand what brings us happiness and what doesn't, what brings others happiness and what doesn't. That in fact true happiness is found in things like love, in connection, in caring for ourselves and others, while we think often that it is found in status, in self-image, in acquisition, in consumption, in pleasure, transient pleasure. I suggest a couple of different standards that we should apply when looking at what brings happiness to ourselves and how we can bring happiness to another's. And one of the most important is that true happiness is always win-win. That very often in this world we think that my happiness is a zero-sum game with your happiness, that my happiness, when it is based on acquisition, may be based on your having less and my having more. True happiness, the things that truly bring happiness always benefit both ourselves and others. They're always win-win. So if we look at the things that truly bring us happiness, at love, at connection, at humor, at joy, at caring, then we find that they all benefit both ourselves and others. So there are a number of very simple tests or things we can ask ourselves about what brings us happiness and what doesn't that can help us have insight into the true causes of happiness and the true causes of unhappiness. Then, on the basis of all that insight, which begins again with that simple practice of resting stably in the present, then we can develop empathy and caring for others and love and compassion. We can develop an ethical basis based on both caring for others as well as ourselves and knowing what truly brings us happiness and what doesn't, and finally develop a sense of joyous connection and community with not only other people, but with all beings and finally with the universe itself. So when we look and see that the development of insight on is where the true transformative power lies that opens both our hearts and our minds, then we can see that mindfulness, beginning with the simple practice of being stably present, can become a complete and transformative path of life, benefiting ourselves, others, this society, and the very future of the planet.

Speaker 1 · 25:18Beautiful.

Speaker 1 · 25:20As you were talking about the path, you used the word investigate a few times, and you mentioned a few questions that you've asked yourself as you've gone through this path. What is the true nature of this experience? What brings true happiness? And so I'm curious how much of your personal path is fueled by these types of questions? And do you encourage like others to get good at asking these questions or to encourage journaling or writing about the path or asking questions on pen and paper? I'm just curious about this investigative part of the path for you.

Speaker 2 · 26:11Well, I think there are lots of different ways that we can look at the world and in a way, by things like journaling, help us to see what we see. And in the book, I mean, half of the book are practices and teachings by some of the leading mindfulness teachers of our time. The other half is by Britain Bunny. And so there's a variety of practices and techniques that are suggested that can help us to not only cultivate mindfulness, but more importantly, cultivate direct experience of ourselves and the nature of reality. For instance, that includes creative exercises that are suggested in the book, journaling, a Mark Coleman on being in nature. Really, in the end, anything in life can be improved by mindfulness. And mindfulness in turn can be applied to anything in life, which I would like to know, by the way, does not make everything mindfulness. Mindfulness is not some grab bag of new age practices and meditations. But I think in the end, in all of those cases, the true benefit of those practices, be they journaling, creativity, being in nature, body scans, is the deeper understanding of and direct experience of who we are and what this world is that we experience, and ultimately what will bring us the kind of happy, meaningful, and beneficial life that we all long for. For instance, I could actually take you through now, take us through, you, Sean, and those of you who are now watching, a couple of different contemplations that I recommend.

Speaker 1 · 27:48Yes, please.

Speaker 2 · 27:49So for instance, and this one is completely not mine, it's completely dick not Hans, but is the contemplation of the universe in a single flower. So take a flower. If you do not have one in front of you, you can visualize one. In fact, you can do this for any object. Now look at that flower and think of all the things that directly led and contribute to the existence of that flower. The sun, light, water in all of its forms, soil, the animals that contributed their bodies to the nutrition that that flower draws from the soil. In the end, you can go along through that process, be it the clouds, the rivers, the rain that produces water that the flower needs. And what you will find is that that flower is in fact a product, a manifestation of the entire universe, that there are infinite causes and conditions that led to the existence of that flower that's in front of you, or whatever object you choose. So that alone shows that the true nature of all things is what Tichnot Han called interbeing. We do not have a separate being, we are all contribute to each other's being. The more classic philosophical term is interdependence, that is used in Buddhism as well as Western philosophy. But I think Tichnot Han coined the term interbeing because it has the living quality of being, that all that we experience, including ourselves and that flower, are a manifestation of the infinite web of causes and conditions known as ijubi. Now, as Tichnot pointed out, in that flower you will find everything in the universe manifested as causes and conditions that contribute to the existence of that flower, except one thing. Try as you might. You will never find in that flower an independent identity or essence called flower. Everything in the universe has causes and conditions, but you will never find anything in that flower that is independent, that has a separate permanent core of flowerness. In the book, I then suggest an interesting exercise to look at ourselves in the same way, which I've labeled the universe in a single being, the universe in a single Melvin or a single Sean. And we can apply exactly the same logic to that. We can look at all the physical causes of our being that are the same as the sun, the same as the flowers, the sun, water, light, oxygen, soil. And then we can start to turn and look at all the human causes of who we are, our parents and what they gave us, for bitter or for worse, in terms of our attitudes, our prejudices, our values, as well as our very existence. We can then look at the society. We can look at the scientists and the doctors who give us the medicine and the knowledge of the scientific world that we depend on. We can look at our teachers, we can look at cultural figures who give us all the music and art that we enjoy and benefit from. At the spiritual figures who hopefully teach us deep eternal values, and come to exactly the same conclusion. That when I look at Melvin, I can find the entire universe is at this very moment contributing by its causes and conditions to the Melvin who is talking to you now. And there's only one thing that I will never find. When I look and investigate the nature of this Melvin, I will never find an independent, separate Melvin anywhere in. So those are a couple of insights into the basic nature of interbeing that have been so brilliantly suggested and taught to us by Technoton.

Speaker 1 · 31:57Maybe we'll name this episode the universe in a single Melvin.

Speaker 2 · 32:02No, please don't. Because I'd have to say that one thing my parents gave to me was the name Melvin, which I can tell you when you're a teenage boy is a bit of a burden. Now, on the other hand, that's not part of my permanent identity. That's causes and conditions of my life.

Speaker 1 · 32:20Well, at least as someone who's a little bit older than a teenage boy, I think it's a wonderful name. Thank you for sharing about all those insights in the path. Really beautiful explanation or pointer to what we can have insights around.

Speaker 1 · 32:38You've talked also about how this movement has taken shape over the last, say, 50 years, give or take. Before that, it was largely, say, more religious. And there's still, you know, the religious movement, but I'm wondering, just looking ahead to the future of mindfulness or this path, how do you see it evolving? And I'm really curious about the community aspect. You have brought people together through your magazines and writings. You've brought people together. And with the religious path of, say, Buddhism or the Theravada, Mahayana, Vajrayana Buddhism, the path could be said that it's kind of centered around a Buddha or enlightenment or the triple gem of the Buddha Dhamma Sangha. Right now, with say a secular evidence-based path, there's a lot of focus on the science, neuroscience, and efficacy of the path, stress reduction, etc. Moving forward, where do you see, say, a focal point, or do you see one large community, or do you see it very fragmented? How do you see this evolving?

Speaker 2 · 34:07Once again, that's another great series of questions. And I will go back to the beginning and again remind me of what I miss. So let's go back to how it got where it is now, because I think in that are the seeds of where it's going to go. Of course, as you've heard, where I believe ultimately it's going to go is to be able to present mindfulness as a broader and broader and deeper and deeper path of life, and not simply a utilitarian, beneficial meditation practice. In the book, I have a chapter entitled Mindfulness in the Twentieth Century, and that focuses on two figures who are central to the creation of what we know as the mainstream mindfulness community. One is Tik Not Han, who is known as the father of mindfulness. The other is John Kabat Zit. Each in their own ways presented mindfulness as a universal human practice and of universal benefit, and were not constrained by any one tradition. Tignarhan, of course, is a well-known Buddhist teacher, but his presentation of mindfulness was at best in a lightly held Buddhist context. And for any of your viewers who are not already familiar with Tiknarhan, I cannot recommend his teachings and his writings enough. I quote them often in the book. To my mind, he is the most important Buddhist teacher of our time, who gave the world two great gifts. One, by bringing social, political, and environmental concerns into Buddhism through the creation of engaged Buddhism, created a major transformation of how Buddhism views and tries to heal Lora. The other, of course, was his presentation of mindfulness as an accessible, universal practice. John Kabadzin, on the other hand, was indeed a practiced yoga who, as he relates, we can actually, in a way, pinpoint the founding of the mainstream mindfulness movement to one specific afternoon at MIT, where a graduate student in chemistry named John Kabatzin, more or less randomly attended a lecture by the American Zen teacher Philip Kappel, who then described his Zen practice and how it had helped him deal with the trauma of his experience as a court reporter at the one of the two major warships cross, as well as helped him heal the colitis that he suffered. At that lecture, John Kabatzin had the same fundamental insight that Tychnadan had. This, what Philip Kapo is describing, both its practice and its philosophy, known as defined as mindfulness, if it could be presented outside of the rather limiting framework of the Eastern religion of Buddhism, would be universally beneficial. Kabat Zen then spent a significant amount of time with that as a vision until he arrived at a practical path forward, which is to bring it into the medical school at the University of Massachusetts in Worcester, where he was teaching, to offer practices to people suffering in the medical school who were suffering from chronic pain, who the conventional medical system was not helping. And his other great insight was that in this society, to document the benefits of the practices that he had those patients doing would draw the attention of researchers and other scientists and would legitimize meditation/slash mindfulness in the broader society. And so, therefore, he created mindfulness-based stress reduction. But while, of course, by necessity, John was focusing on specific concrete benefits, as the name mindfulness-based stress reduction implies, it was always from the beginning, in his mind, a complete path. Right from the beginning, he brought the key element of insight into the ways that people suffering from chronic pain could start to work with what they were experiencing, by noticing, for instance, having insight into the fact that their experience of pain came and went, that it was always transient and changing, that it was unclear who or what was actually experiencing that pain, and by letting go of the fixed idea of the suffering self, that they could indeed suffer less. So I think that both John Kabatzin and Tichnot Han, from the very beginning, did define mindfulness as a complete path of life with many different aspects. Undoubtedly, that included both mindfulness meditation and mental stability, that included insight, most importantly, that included love and compassion, that included living ethnically, that included a sense of community. So I believe that the evolution now of the mindfulness movement toward seeing mindfulness as a complete and comprehensive path of life was indeed present in the minds of its founders right from the beginning.

Speaker 2 · 39:35The second question you raised was largely about community. And I believe that this has got to be the other step forward in terms of the development of mindfulness. Right now, people practice mindfulness individually, they read about it, they hear about it, they may even buy my book and they listen to this podcast. But either online or most importantly, in person, the mainstream mindfulness movement is as yet very underdeveloped. Personally, I hope deeply that we start to see inclusive, accessible, open mindfulness centers in major American cities as a starting place to the development of a true mindfulness community. Because I do feel that even connecting online is not enough. That in the end, to have true sustaining power and impact, that mindfulness practitioners have to start to come together as mindfulness practitioners and develop a true national mindfulness community. If I were to say, where is the mindfulness movement, where is it going to evolve? I don't know. Where do I think it should evolve? I think it should A start by developing a deeper and more expansive definition of mindfulness as a complete path of life. And secondly, that it needs to start to develop a true and ultimately face-to-face mindfulness community.

Speaker 1 · 41:03And breath to breath.

Speaker 2 · 41:05But let's breathe together.

Speaker 1 · 41:07Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1 · 41:09Melvin McLeod, author of With a Single Breath, The Complete Path of Mindfulness. You can find it on Amazon or wherever books are sold starting August 11th. We will have a link to where you can get the book in the show notes. Please check out Melvin's complete lists of books on Amazon or the most bookstores. Melvin McLeod, thank you so much for sharing all of this. It's been very helpful to hear you articulate this path and how human this path is and how it's very accessible to everyone, highlighting some of the key features of the path. Before we say goodbye, is there anything else that you'd like to share with our community today?

Speaker 2 · 42:04No, I think I just want to conclude by thanking you, Sean. I think that you've brought to this conversation very thoughtful points and questions. And more importantly, your very sincere heart as a seeker. It's not often in this world we get to have these kinds of conversations with people who are thoughtful, knowledgeable, and heartfelt seekers toward a better life and a better world. So I've really enjoyed this, and I thank you very much for all that you've brought to this conversation.

Speaker 1 · 42:36I appreciate all that, and I appreciate your patience with my multi-part questions that can feel like 10 questions in one. So I appreciate how you handled that and navigated all that with grace. So Melvin McLeod, thanks again for all of your great work. I believe that your good karma is vast, and it's an honor to learn from you today. Thanks again for this book and for everyone listening and watching. Please check out his new book with a single breath. Melvin, deep bows to you. Big gratitude for you and your work. Thank you so much for it.