Speaker 1 · 0:03So, for those of you who are not so familiar with Delson, Delson studied at the Pathways World School in India for three years, completed his A levels through the University of Cambridge International Examination Center of the British Council. He graduated from the New York Film Academy, published a series of novels. He attained all six degrees of Kriya Yoga, studied under the Panashadic contemplative practices. He has attained all 10 levels of Samati, which are meditative states of absorption. He's also practiced jana yoga and studied the teachings of Krishnamurti and UG Krishnamurti. He leads physical retreats and online retreats all over the world. Author of A Mind Without Craving. Delson, thank you for being here. Thank you very much, Sean.
Speaker 2 · 1:00When you get distracted, there's a way to deal with those hindrances. And the way to deal with those hindrances are known as something as the six Rs. Six Rs, they're basically a mnemonic device to what's known as right effort, dealing with hindrances that is to let go of unwholesome states of mind, unbeneficial states of mind, and bringing up wholesome beneficial states of mind. And distraction really is defined by whenever your attention is no longer fully on the object of meditation. In other words, you might be aware of a traffic of thoughts coming in and out, but you're staying with the object. If now your mind looks at that traffic and starts to go up towards that traffic rather than stay with that object, then you are distracted. That's when you use the six stars and you come back. So the first star here is to recognize when you get distracted. As soon as you notice and recognize you got distracted, that whole flow of distraction stops. You know, this whole momentum of all of these different thoughts that bring up that distraction stops right there as you recognize. When you release your attention, that's the second R. You release your attention from that distraction. And then the third crucial step is to relax. So you're taking your attention away from that distraction and you're bringing it back to the mind and body. And then you're relaxing the mind and body because the way we understand it is this agitation, this discontentment with the present moment. In that sense, a distraction is discontent with the object of meditation. Your attention swerves away from your object because you get bored unconsciously, because your mind is seeking something else, and that attention, becoming bored, looks at something else that might be more interesting. And so the mind is used to that. That's the default mode network. It's used to thinking about the past, the future, or about you know self-referential thoughts. But your training here is to acknowledge that and be aware of that, but not to suppress it. If you suppress that aspect of the mind, all you're doing is bringing mental pressure downwards, which at a later stage will manifest in an explosion of all of these kinds of thoughts and ideas, which are not helpful to the mind, which bring discontentment, which bring a lot of dissatisfaction, a lot of stress to the mind. So instead of suppressing, you know, one of the analogies that I use when we talk about the suppression part is you know, you think about you're at the swimming pool or you're at the beach and you have a beach ball and you push it down under water, you suppress it, you push it down. As soon as you let go, what's going to happen? It's going to come back up. So the same way, if you're going to be dealing with distractions in a way that suppress that distraction, then that distraction is not actually dealt with. That hindrance is not actually dealt with. Now, there are these five types of distractions, which I'll talk about. But if you deal with them in a way that says, I don't like it, or I want more of it, or you push it away and you try to bring it down, it's going to manifest at a future time in a way that is not helpful. So the way to deal with them in a way that is effective, in a way that allows you to acknowledge and learn from the distraction. So the attitude here is to be able to say distractions and hindrances are actually our teachers. They're our friends, they shed light on where our sources of attachment are, where our sources of dissatisfaction are, where our sources of aversion are, where our sources of taking things personally are. And when you can see that and face it and then deal with it by releasing your attention and relaxing the tightness and tension in mind and body, which is a manifestation of that, when you do that, you're tranquilizing, as it's said in the text, tranquilizing formations. And you know, on a let's say neuroscientific neurological level, what's going on is you're actually reprogramming, rewiring the way your behavioral reactions are. So instead of dealing with the distraction in a way that causes you to continue to grasp at it or to push it against it, you're actually dealing it in such a way that you're relaxing. Once you relax, your mind feels this relief from the tension, from the stress. Once it feels that, the mind feels expansive. It feels content, it feels at peace for those few moments. With that kind of state of mind, you come to what's known as a smile, and then you return back to your object and then you repeat. So this is really the six R's. And you're dealing with them whenever you get distracted, which are the hindrances. So, you know, once you recognize the distraction, you release your attention from it, relax. The next part is resmile. So you start meditation or any meditation, you have a little Buddha smile. You see anytime the Buddha or statues of a meditator, they're always in a state of joy, they're in a state of happiness. And that's a lesson. You know, you just smile a little bit, you bring up the corners of your mouth, so your mind be is a little uplifted, your body is a little uplifted, and your mood or your emotions are uplifted. So if you notice that you are distracted, chances are that you're not smiling anymore. So after the relaxed step, you come back and see if you are smiling. If you are smiling, then that's great. If you're not smiling, you re-smile. That's the other R. After you re-smile, you return back to your object, whether that's loving kindness or the breath or whatever it might be. And then you repeat. So the sixth R there is to repeat anytime you get distracted again.
Speaker 1 · 7:26Would you recommend say relaxing mind and body while still kind of lightly recognizing the say stress or distraction? Or is that a completely separate process where it's like all relaxation, kind of like after the recognition? Is there some level of combination there where I'm still recognizing that my mind was there, you know, maybe from more of a meta, you know, I'm not so entrapped in it, but I'm still recognizing that that's still there and that there's some energy still there, and I can relax with it. So can you comment on that a little bit?
Speaker 2 · 8:10Yeah, the way I look at it is you're relaxing into it. So, in that sense, you're observing with that metacognition where you're taking a step back and you're actually watching how the mind got distracted. You say, Okay, mind is distracted, let me relax. So, now for some people that can translate as having completely let go of the distraction and staying with the relaxed, or being aware that the mind is still in that state, but still relaxing. The emphasis here is to continue to make it into a wave. So even if the mind is recognizing, but you still continue on to relaxing, that's more than enough. So it's like a wave. Even if you're aware of it, but you're relaxing, that's the crucial thing that you have to understand. So if you relax and you feel the effects of that relaxation, where now the mind is undistracted, now the mind is feeling that spaciousness. That's the key. If you can see that the mind is feeling that spaciousness, move on to the next step or the re-smile and return.
Speaker 1 · 9:11Thank you. I appreciate all that, including that phrase of relaxing into it. I think a lot of people would maybe have this subtle inclination of using the relaxation as say aversion or suppression, yeah, when it's not that. So thank you. I appreciate that subtlety. So the six Rs are a way of framing right effort, sort of quote unquote right mindfulness or samasati is this to remember to observe how the mind moves from one say experience to the next or one state of mind to the next.
Speaker 2 · 9:50Yeah, very easily put. It's basically, you know, you were staying with your object, and then your mind got distracted, it went somewhere else, your attention went somewhere else. The recognition of that in itself is the mindfulness that, oh, my mind was here and now it's here. So, you know, when we talk about mindfully eating or mindfully walking or mindfully doing anything, it's not only just being aware and present of the experience of whatever it is, whether eating or walking or just sitting, it's also recognizing what states of mind are present. Is there present joy or is there present craving? Is there present anger or is there present equanimity and so on?
Speaker 1 · 10:36So you use the word observe, and this kind of comes up quite a bit in terms of how we relate to the visceral sensations of loving kindness, and we kind of like hold the experience or observe the experience without merging into it or reacting it or you know, suppressing it. But this quality of observation, I have some questions around, say, the word usage, and I'm open to hearing perspectives, but sometimes when we say the word observe, there may be this implication that we're saying visualizing or using our eyes, which could say emphasize more of a head-based relation to experience. And so, with this quality of observation, you know, remembering to observe. Can you talk about the word observe or how you relate to that word observation? And is it more of an embodied sense or is there a lot of visual happening?
Speaker 2 · 11:40Yeah, yeah. I mean, even if I say watch or witness, it has a connotation of a visual aspect to it. I think probably the better way of looking at it is to be aware of, to become aware of. So you're not using it in terms of the eyes or the head, it's just let's say remembering to become aware of how your attention is moving. So the consciousness or the awareness of, or the cognizing, or the understanding that mind is now distracted or mind is now collected, or whatever it might be. So the observation that we're doing really is the presence of mind, staying present, being aware of what's going on.
Speaker 1 · 12:25Thank you. Yeah, so perhaps more from like an embodied awareness could be, you know, in the head or the chest, but sort of more of an awareness. For me, that word usage helps, especially if we're teaching people how to teach mindfulness. Sometimes these distinctions can be helpful for teachers. So I appreciate that clarity.
Speaker 2 · 12:50Yeah. Now, in general, there are five types of distractions that can occur in the mind, and they are categorized in the following way: there can be sensual craving, there can be aversion, there can be restlessness, there can be sloth and torpor, and there can be doubt. Sensual craving is very simple. It's basically, you know, you're meditating, let's say, and there's a fly in the room, and it's buzzing around. And now your mind, you know, you would pay attention to the sound of the buzzing around. And now you think about that, and now that thought leads to something else, and now you're thinking about something else. Now you're completely distracted. Or, you know, that leads you to think about something else that's more pleasant, and that leads you to becoming more and more restless. So, tied to that, there can be aversion where that same sound of the fly buzzing, now you get irritated because you say, I'm trying to meditate, and now my mind is distracted, and that's the aversion. So you brought up something very important, Sean, which was you know, the relaxed step. It should not be seen as an aversion or have some type of an aversion. You know, when we're doing the relaxed step, it's not like a it's not like swatting the fly. It's not like you know, using it like a whack-a-mo, trying to deal with the distractions in that way. It's just, okay, I acknowledge you, I understand you're there. I'm gonna let you go now. I'm gonna just relax and let you go. That's the attitude you have. So if you notice the aversion, if you notice sensual craving, that can give rise to restlessness. Restlessness is just this energy in the mind, and it can come in the form of anxiety, just this undercurrent energy that's there that doesn't allow you to become fixated around your object of meditation. Then you have sloth and torpor, which is just a fancy way of saying sleepiness and dullness of mind. So if you do notice that the mind starts to, you know, you're meditating and then suddenly your head drops and your head drops again, you know, you keep doing that because your mind is sleepy. It's either because there's a lack of mental energy, a lack of physical energy, maybe you need to take a nap, maybe you need to get some sleep, or you need some exercise to get the blood flowing. And then finally, there can be doubt. Now that doubt comes in the form of, you know, am I doing this right? I don't know about this practice, am I feeling the loving kindness? Am I staying with my object? You know, every time you have these kinds of thoughts means your mind is distracted. So you can recognize you got distracted, release, relax, resmile, and return back to the object. So, how do you deal with them? I mean, that's using the six R's, but I'll give you some practical tips in terms of sloth and torpor in particular, because you know, first-time meditators, they usually get into the category of having too much restlessness where there's just too much mental energy going on, or sloth and torpor where there's not enough energy and people are starting to become drowsy. There are a few things that you can do. Number one, if the weather is good out, meditate outside with some fresh air and sunlight. You know, the perception of light, it starts to awaken up the mind. You know, it starts to say, okay, it's daylight, let me stay alert. Another thing is you can walk backwards for about 10-15 minutes just to walk backwards. Because what you're doing there is you are gravitating your attention towards that walking backwards. So now you're solidifying your attention, you're strengthening your attention. Sloth and torpor, that sleepiness and dullness of mind results because there's not enough energy in that attention. So when you walk backwards, you're bringing up more energy, you're bringing up more attention in your mind. When you do that, go back to your meditation, you're gonna find that it's much easier to stay with your object. Now, when you're dealing with these hindrances, it's not important for you to note what hindrance is present. It's enough to say, Oh, I got distracted, no big deal. I'm gonna, you know, you notice you got distracted, release your attention, relax, resmile, and return back to your object. When you do this, the mind naturally becomes collected around its object. As it becomes naturally collected, it stops paying more and more attention outside. First of all, when you meditate, your eyes are closed, which means you're secluded from any kind of vision of what's going on outside of you, and you start paying less attention to what you're hearing, you start paying less attention to the body, and you stay with that object. This is what's meant by secluded from sensual experiences. Now you're just with the mind, now the mind is getting collected. So the other factors that arise based on that. So now you have the thinking and examining thought, seclusion from unwholesome states of mind, seclusion from sensual experiences, and then joy and comfort. So this comes from piti and sukha that joy is the joy of having relaxed and let go of those unwholesome states of mind. So here you're not bringing up the joy, the joy naturally arises as a sigh of relief from distractions. It's like, oh, I'm done with these distractions now. Now I can be happy, right? Now you're internally happy. Now the mind feels happy, and because of that, the body feels very light, the body feels very relaxed, and that's what's known as sukha. And then the final element is what's known as ekagata, the unification of mind. Now, what that means is the way to think about meditation, the way to think about collectedness of mind, at least in the way that I teach it, is to think about it in this way. Here's your object in meditation. This is your object in meditation, and here's your attention, here's your mind. Instead of sticking onto it, which suppresses everything else, you're orbiting around the object in meditation. You're getting collected around it. The reason you want to keep that space is for two things: enough space for hindrances to naturally arise so that you can deal with them as they arise using the six R's. And second, and more importantly, so that when insights arise into how mind's attention moves, how mind responds, how mind reacts, the more you're able to see this, the easier it becomes for you to be more collected, the easier it becomes for your mind to be more stationary and less, you know, all over the place. But then that also naturally translates into a collected mind outside of the sitting practice, outside of the meditation cushion. In other words, you bring the meditation outside in your day-to-day life. Whether you're answering an email, whether you're having a conversation with someone, whether you're driving, whether you're taking a shower, you are aware of what's going on in your mind. And if you notice that there's craving, if you notice there's unwholesome states of mind, you can use the six Rs to become more collected in whatever it is that you're doing. Become more present and aware of whatever it is that you're doing. So this practice is not just benefiting you in terms of sitting practice, but allowing you to actually see where those behavioral patterns are and recondition them for the better.
Speaker 1 · 20:48I think most people just don't know what's possible with the mind the more we practice. This is what happens naturally with the mind, and this is just a beautiful way of working with the mind to enhance our understanding of the mind and quote unquote reality of this experience of being human. So, Delson, I really want to thank you for your time today and just really grateful for your presence and teachings here today. Thank you for having me.
