Speaker 1 · 0:03Austin Hill Shaw. Hi. For those of you who aren't familiar with Austin Hill Shaw, he's a creativity teacher. Teach about creativity. You're an author of the Shoreline of Wonder, a wonderful book on creativity. You've taught about people's inherent right to creativity, the nature of being creative. This is our birthright. You've taught at Google and you've consulted a lot of different kinds of companies and leaders on creativity. You're also a home designer, and I just find you very fascinating, and you've taught me so much over the years in our many encounters as friends. So my intention here is to share your wisdom and your words and your care with folks who may want to learn more about what you do and what you can share around creativity, how we can bring more mindfulness to our creative nature, and you know what we can do to further those things in our lives. And I think that the world can benefit a lot from what you have to offer. You know, I think a lot of us relate to creativity as maybe being a nice to have. You know, I'll be creative once I get everything done. You know, we might think of it as a frivolous hobby or something that's not exactly integrated into the rest of our life. So can you talk about why creativity matters?
Speaker 2 · 1:55Yeah. So one way that anthropologists look at human beings is that we are bipeds that make things, meaning we walk on two legs, and more than any other creature, we make all kinds of different things. We make meals, we invent things, we throw parties, we can remember some version of ourselves in the past and envision some version of ourselves in the future. And so all of us are inherently creators, meaning that we have these capabilities that allow us to change our environment and change it profoundly in the case of buildings and cities and all of those sorts of things. And the reality is that most people actually don't identify as creative because they put themselves in the bucket that that's creative because it's artistic or performative or eccentric. And so they tend to say that person's creative and I'm not. They don't take that aspect of themselves seriously. And so, based on that belief structure, it really limits you in a lot of different ways. Because if you're seeing creativity as being expressed in other people, but not yourself, you might not even engage it just because you have this belief in your mind that you are not creative. And so one of the reasons and the ideas is like, why is creativity have so much universal appeal? Because we as humans, all of us have the capacity to create. And so just getting into that understanding was really important. However, when I first started going out to try to teach people about creativity, because less than half the people in the room statistically didn't even identify as creative, if I started talking about creative, people would sort of check out the ones that weren't actually didn't see themselves as creative. And so at that point, I had to say, well, what are the needs that are being satisfied through the creative process? And again, I'm not talking about an artistic process, but really a creative approach to life. And what arose was that there are basically three core elements, what I call the core human needs, that are arising out of our innate ability to create. And the first one is connection. Like all of us have a need for connection. And connection in the language of creativity is insight. These are those aha moments. So we need connections with ourselves, with others, with our loved ones, with communities, with the earth. Those are ways of looking at the connections that we're wanting to build. But insights are this form of connection, those aha moments where it feels like the universe is handing us something. That's the kind of beauty of insights in general, is that they come to you. It's like they're like these mystical experiences by which all of a sudden you have some understanding that wasn't there the moment before. So going to the other side, which is you know this sort of passive side of experiencing an insight, on the other side, what we need is basically this desire to contribute. And that's a core human need there as well. All of us want to make a difference. We all want to make the world a better place in some way, shape, or form. And again, what that better place looks like is different by each individual. But all of us have a deep yearning to bring things into the world for the betterment of ourselves and the people that we love, our communities, and those sorts of things. So that's a desire to contribute. In creativity, that's called manifestation. That's basically bringing our either our own insights or another person's insights into the world. Meaning, when you get an insight, typically it's a feeling more than anything, it's an experience. But the translation of that insight into form takes work. And so that's what manifestation offers is that quality of doing what needs to be done in order so that can be shared in a way that other people can grasp. And then the third core human need is the need for meaning. And there's really two types of meaning. One's a conceptual meaning, which is basically having a sense of maybe what your vision or your mission is for your life, where you have some sense of the narrative that you're utilizing in order to maneuver the world. And so, for example, in the case of two Buddhist practitioners working here, those cosmologies and the frameworks that are provided by these wisdom traditions, are ways in which we've learned to live. But there's another type of meaning, which I would call the non-conceptual meaning, which are basically those experiences that are so engaging and so immersive that they are beyond thought. And so, you know, what is meaningful in creativity, like kind of the highest expression of creativity, is what we might call self-expression. And really, I like to think of it with a self with a capital S, meaning it's the big knowingness that's connected to the universe being channeled through our finite movements and decisions and all the things that we do. So, for example, if you're watching the sports highlights, the reason that those go up there is because we get to see people self-expressing in flow states, doing things that seem to defy what a normal person wouldn't be able to do or a team would be able to do. And so, again, the core human needs of connection, contribution, and meaning go along with the creative needs of insight, manifestation, and self-expression.
Speaker 1 · 7:32Yeah, it's well said. You know, I think a lot of people think of meditation or at least certain kinds of meditation as being very passive. So I'd love to hear you talk a little bit more about the relationship between creativity and meditation or mindfulness, and how we may be able to say reorient our perception of what meditation is or what it can do for us in say a little bit more of an active sense.
Speaker 2 · 8:11Yeah, so looking at another trinity. So, for example, as a Vajana practitioner, it's often talked about the three jnana journey, meaning like the three vehicles, which bring you from basically samsara to nirvana, you know, at least that's sort of starting place there. So within Vajana Buddhism, these three vehicles are the hinyana, which is basically the narrow path, it's the focus on self. And then there is the Mahayana, which is basically the greater vehicle. And finally, you have the Vajana, which is known as the indestructible vehicle. And so, starting with the hinayana, the hinayana is essentially about working with yourself. Typically, the reason that people get into meditation in the first place is because something is not working in their life. And so the basic meditation that I was taught is something called shamata vapasna, which just means shamata is dwelling in peace. Vapashana means insight. So the idea is that by sitting there and watching your breath, focusing on that focal object, what you start to develop is awareness of the space between thoughts. And that space between thoughts is exactly the same as an insight. Those are the spaces of insights, meaning there's a ground of awareness that is always already available, that is not overtaken by thoughts or discursiveness. And again, when you learn how to tap into that, and it's not a matter of putting more stuff on, it's about moving things out of the way. That's what starts to create that ability to trust in your own experience. And I would say that that is kind of the seed of what we have when we are in that hinyana phase, when we're working with ourselves. And the relief comes when we recognize it's like, no, our thoughts are not the basis of our experience. There's this ground below there that is rich and vast and full of potentiality. And that's what we relate to in that first phase. When we go into the Mahayana, you know, after we have an experience in the Hinayana, and we feel a sense of sort of rounding, often there's a sense of upwelling and the desire to help, to serve, to want to do more, you know, to help our fellow beings out. And that's when we start to move into the archetype of the bodhisattva. And the bodhisattva is again one who wants to contribute to the well-being and connection, contribution. The bodhisattva is wanting to contribute. And they're wanting also to alleviate suffering in others. And so the Mahayana is really about that manifestation. It's taking the insights that you've gained from the Hinayana path and the connection that you start to have with the ground and start bringing that in service of other people and the world at large. That's the sort of the way of looking at it. And then finally, when we get to the Vajana, the Vajana is again known as the indestructible vehicle. And the idea, as opposed to being just sitting on the mat as we do within the Hinayana or in the Mahayana of working out in the world, it's like what we're trying to do in the Vajana is to bring all experiences into that place of awareness. So even things that are difficult or challenging, you know, big emotional states, passion, aggression, intoxicants. We're trying to bring that sense of awareness into all of those things and see them all as list and emptiness or luminosity and emptiness. Like we're riding the razor's edge between ignoring and being overwhelmed on some levels. And so those are the ways in which a mindfulness practice, I believe, evolves over time. I really love the Vajrayana, the three yana journey in that, because it does take you through these different steps. Again, that place of gross level confusion in the Hinayana and moving towards a sense of wisdom. And then in the Mahayana, just recognizing our innate ability to care for other people when we're able to care for ourselves first, when we put on our oxygen masks first. And finally, in the Vajana, as opposed to keeping things out in the world, including difficult news, difficult people, difficult situations, challenges, we get this courage to take things on and say, okay, I'm going to make a stand for my healing. I'm going to make a stand for my family's healing. I'm going to do what I can to work with the greater earth or whatever it is that you're up to. That starts to become the indestructible path because you're infusing your daily life and your activities with a mindfulness practice, with a way of looking at the world that, again, neither solidifies nor steps out of entirely.
Speaker 1 · 13:02Yeah, well said. Yeah, I liked that metaphor of sort of being on that razor's edge between ignoring the world or ignoring ourselves or ignoring strong emotions and strong energies, and on the other side being overwhelmed by it or being reactive to it. And so you wrote a book, The Shoreline of Wonder, which reminds me of this Razor's Edge, where we're on the shoreline between these two sides. And you know, I think a lot of mindfulness and meditation points to this sense of wonder, this sense of opening to life, opening to what's actually happening without say ignoring it and also without being overwhelmed by it, but just opening to what is. So can you talk a little bit about some practices or thoughts you have around staying open on that razor's edge, walking that shoreline? Because it's so easy to tune out what's uncomfortable or to react to what's uncomfortable. You know, you talked about the sense of like courage or bravery to actually stay open, but love to get some insight as to what helps you to stay on that shoreline of wonder, to stay open, keep looking at things with fresh eyes and senses, like how we can navigate that razor's edge more and more in our lives.
Speaker 2 · 14:49Thank you. So, in writing the Shoreline of Wonder, one of the things that I was chasing in the beginning, or one of the threads I was following, was what is an aha moment? What is an aha moment? And the fun thing about exploring anything, you know, legitimately is like you start to get these little breadcrumbs. And what I would start to see in some of the footnotes of the books I was reading were William James's The Varieties of Religious Experience. You know, it just kept on popping up. I'm like, oh, I better check that out, you know, after two, three times or so. And so I turned to the chapter on mysticism. And basically, William James says that a mystical experience is one where they basically it's ineffable, meaning you can't explain it with words, right? That's the first quality. Second, it comes with a sense of absolute truth. Even though you can't necessarily describe what it is, it comes with this sense of truth. Like, yeah, you feel it. And then it's also something that's typically brief, it's something that happens only in a short period of time. And then it also is passive. And then I also added, which is a little bit of an anathema to the sort of spiritual traditions, it says, and it happens in individuals. Like these insights occur in individual minds. And this is one of the interesting things about Buddhism. They said you can know anything in the world, but you can't know another person's mind. It's sort of this paradoxical thing. And then when I recognize that, like, okay, here's the insights, here's the aha moments. And then I well, what's the opposite? And that started to create the sense of manifestation. So at the top of there, the opposite of something that's ineffable is it's it's definable. In order for you to move something forward, you can't just be everything. You have to start to work with one particular thing. If you move it down, you know, on the opposite space of something that comes with a sense of absolute truth. If you move into a project with a sense of absolute truth and try to engage others, they're not going to want to participate. So you start to have to be flexible with your own design. And then on the sense of it being brief, on the other side, this is typically where things are enduring. You know, it takes time to bring things in the world. And then also on the opposite of it being passive, this is the active part of creativity. And finally, it takes place in the collective. So when you start to see these two poles, like any duality that you have, whenever you have a duality, there's also a third entity in there. So again, if you mix the ineffable with the definable, then you get wonder. And really, sort of for example, in Islam, they have a name for this between like the known and the unknown worlds, it's known as the barsak or the isn'tis. It's the angelic realms that are connecting what you can know and you don't know. And then same thing between something that comes with this sense of absolute truth and something that you know needs flexibility, that's that quality of wonder, you know, where you're chewing on things. Same thing with patience, same thing with flow, and same thing with love, right? Those are all elements that sit in the middle between these extremes over there. And so when we talk about the razor's edge, you know, you're really talking about dualities that people find themselves in. It's either this or that. It's either male or female, it's either black or white. And so those dualities can be helpful on some levels, but when we sit with something over time, often it changes into something entirely, how to say, usually something that kind of transcends and includes those other dualities. That in and of itself is a magical thing. And so the mind itself likes to kind of sit in dualities, especially these sort of days with this sort of the polarization going on and the algorithms that sort of try to put you in this bucket and not that bucket, and then get these buckets kind of fighting with one another. I would say that most of the practices that are so important all have to do with doing what we can to step out of our conceptual mind as, how should I say, step out of the mind as sort of the ruler and more into the place where the mind is helping us to stay organized within time. So basically, the main journey here is like we put the heart at the top and the our felt sense, the deeper sense, the ocean, you know, ocean of awareness. And then we utilize the mind as something to just carry out those things. You know, you can look at how do we do that physically, how do we do that emotionally, how do we do that mentally, and how do we do that spiritually? And those are the different categories by which we can start to get out of the sort of knee-jerk, reactive way of working with our mind and get into a space that is really genuinely creative because we're in a space of curiosity, because we're in a space of wonder, and we're allowing the world to teach us and inform us. It becomes a co-creative process.
Speaker 1 · 19:54Beautiful. Thank you for sharing all that. Yeah, you know, it with mindfulness, we talk a lot about how with mindfulness, we're noticing the way things are in your moment-to-moment experience without judging it to be good or bad, right or wrong, or getting caught up into that duality of judgment, but rather to soften judgments and then sort of replace it with that sense of curiosity or investigation or openness, which can easily move into that wonderful territory. So I think general encouragement would be to notice whether we're framing things into black or white ways of thinking, or A or B buckets, or however you want to frame it, and rather maybe open to the is-ness or the nature of what it is. And you know, there's a thousand shades of gray. So yeah, I think that's all really helpful, and I really appreciate the way that you're describing all that. You've mentioned a few trinities, duality, these different models of how we can say think through these undefinable, ineffable topics. Can you just talk a little bit more about what it means to feel joyful? Because a lot of people don't feel that on a daily basis or yearly basis, and may not see that potential for how we can live in our home with joy. Can you talk a little bit about that, say, end result of what that can mean?
Speaker 2 · 21:49Yeah. So one of the things I like to distinguish between is happiness on the one side and joy on the other. And really, I mean, there's a lot of ways to look at it, but I like to think of happiness as a temporary state, which is usually caused by causes and conditions. Like something so-called good happens and you feel happy. And conversely, something bad happens and you feel sad. And so, you know, with that model, you know, it's a lot of up and downs. Joy is more of an abiding trait that's developed over time. And again, a mindfulness practice in a lot of ways is about how can we be less in our heads and more interacting with the world as it is. And so happiness is available when you're basically you're getting something as an individual separate from the world and you get something, but that starts to go away because there's a bigger game in town, which is basically can you drop in and really ultimately can we take home in ourselves no matter what is happening? The more and really the most important thing that we are here to love is ourselves. Like that self-love is so key. And so the mindfulness practice again, when we are able to sort of just be with ourselves and either have a discursive practice or one that's just like, well, yeah, I felt like I was the Buddha in that one. Both of those are great, but what you get to see is the contents of your mind. That sort of acceptance is joyful, and it's the acceptance by why we're working on a creative project together. You know, all the interactions, all the decisions, all the choices, and doing them in a good way that actually represents the beliefs and values of the people there. That's where the joy comes out of. And that's why we stress it's about what's going to make a good project is us being in good relationship with one another and maintaining that, you know, it doesn't mean that we get into conflict. Yeah, that's gonna come up, but we practiced, we've already practiced, and now we can work through this too. These are all opportunities to develop more and more intimacy with ourselves and with the people in the world around us.
Speaker 1 · 23:52Yeah, beautiful. Well, thank you for being intimate with us here. Thank you for sharing. It's really just inspiring. I think you're great. I think you're nifty. Thank you so much, Austin. You want to share how people can find you or recommend any next steps if people want to contact you?
Speaker 2 · 24:14Yeah, so our website is three lights design, so lightsplural and designsingular.com. And also we'll have links to a course on teachable, which is the Joyful Homer model, to get clarity on who you are in relationship to your remodel. Beautiful. Thank you so much, Justin. Really appreciate your time today. So great to spend time with you, too.
Speaker 1 · 24:38I always love our conversations.
